Channel Surf: Syfy and 30 Minutes with Steve Cropper

Music aficionados know Steve Cropper as the Stax Records session-guitarist, the axe-man for Booker T. & the M.G.’s, the co-author of such legendary hits as “In the Midnight Hour,” “Knock on Wood,” “Soul Man” and “(Sittin’ On) The Dock of the Bay” and as the producer of countless notable albums and soundtracks. He’s a “guitar player’s guitar player” and considered by many to be one of the best (and most underrated) players to ever pick up the instrument, but most people of my generation know “The Colonel” best as the “white” guitarist of The Blues Brothers Band; from the classic film that many of us grew up watching, frequently, on Saturday afternoon commercial television.

In August Mr. Cropper released a (guest) star-studded solo album titled DEDICATED: A TRIBUTE TO THE 5 ROYALES and recently, I received a telephone call from the music icon. The interview may have only lasted about 30 minutes, but during that time I got to share some laughs, talk some shop and gain some insight into the life, career and creative process of one of my guitar-heroes. Among the many things we discussed that day, Mr. Cropper spoke candidly and at length about the new album, The 5 Royales and Lowman Pauling, his first guitar, blues legends Albert & B.B. King and about what it was like working with one of the American film industry’s most respected horror directors; on the score for a film that has, in recent years, become its own Saturday afternoon TV classic.

J. Blake: I wanted to start off by asking you about your first guitar. Your bio says you received it at age 14.

Steve Cropper: It was just a Sears & Roebuck Country-Western, round-whole, flattop sunburst and it didn’t have any binding or anything. I think the round-whole was painted white around it [he chuckles] to give it some trim and I had only seen a picture of it in the catalogue. It said it was seventeen dollars, not “$17.95.” In those days they put the actual prices of things.

JB: How long did you use that guitar before you got something a little more substantial?

SC: Quite a while. The reason for the guitar, very simple, I saw this guitar and I said, “Dad I want you to buy me a guitar” and basically he said, “Son we can’t afford a guitar.” So that summer I set bowling pins, I shined shoes, I mowed lawns and trimmed yards. I did whatever I could to earn a quarter or fifty cents to save seventeen dollars to buy that guitar from Sears & Roebuck; which they delivered on a Saturday.

When I got it, my Dad looked at it. I guess he thought I was serious, because he said, “Well son, I know I told you we can’t afford one and we can’t, but if you learn how to play that, I’ll buy you a good guitar.” So he kept his promise and I think he bought a guitar off of a police sergeant in Memphis; that he either heard about through somebody or he saw it in the paper or something.

He took me over to this guy’s house and the guy gets the guitar out and plugs it into a little amplifier and plays it. I think it was a Gibson thin-body single cutaway, one pickup. I believe it was a 125, not a 175, with a trapeze-bridge. That guitar is now in Cleveland in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Museum.

And so I looked at it and I thought my father was going to buy it, but he didn’t. He said, “Well son, I just wanted to make sure you liked it, but I don’t know what we’re going to do yet” and he said, “I’ll let you know.”

Then of course later that night, my Mom said, “Hey run into the living room” and I went into the living room and there it was sitting on the floor with the case open. There was the guitar. So they wanted to surprise me with it.

JB: Wow that’s a great story! Your latest album, DEDICATED, is a tribute to The 5 Royales and you’ve often cited Lowman Pauling as a major influence. I was hoping you could describe his style a little bit and how it may have influenced your playing.

SC: I got to see him live and he pretty much played live about like what I heard on the record. He played a lot of the rhythm and shuffle-beats and all that, but then when there was a hole, he’d put a fill in there; a little lick in there. He did some solos and all, but he had a lot of these little intros that he would play and it all seemed to be so melodic. I said to myself, “Boy that’s a great style.”

I wouldn’t say that I exactly patterned myself after him, but I certainly did get influenced by that; which is a style that lends itself to not being so busy in the studio when you’re recording a session. Most of the engineers, producers and artists love that idea. Most musicians get in there and just want to play all over the place and show you how good they are. Then you’ve got to worry about hiding them in the mix somewhere; get them out of way of the vocal and all of that. So I developed a style at Stax where I didn’t step on the vocal all the time. I played in the holes and if there wasn’t a hole, I didn’t play anything. I just played rhythm. So I guess he (Pauling) is my main influence.

JB: What was it like seeing him live for the first time?

SC: Seeing him live? Well that was the thrill of a lifetime! In those days we were so young. We were under-age and we were not supposed to be there in the first place. We had a club owner sneak us in and I think Duck (Donald “Duck” Dunn) and I were either 19 or 20. It was a thrill to be there and we weren’t so concerned with people sitting around and drinking; you know that sort of stuff? We were just watching that band. Of course, my attention was on Pauling the whole time, I think. I can’t even remember much of the rest of the night. I just remember him on stage and what he looked like; how he handled himself. I guess Duck was the other way. He was looking at the bass player the whole time. [He laughs] Neither one of us being singers, we didn’t care too much about that.

JB: How did decide that it was time to make a tribute album to The 5 Royales?

SC: Several people had been after me about doing another solo record and more than one person, labels and producers and whatever, had been calling me saying, “You need to make another solo record and a good format would be that we’ll bring in a lot of other guitar players and musicians and we’ll let everybody play with you. We’ll bring in some singers, etc.” And they talked about doing an HBO special or a PBS special and bringing all these people in and filming it and editing it down. So it would’ve been more of a live record and I listened to all that. I actually agreed to some of it and I would’ve been more than happy to do it with a lot of other artists. That would’ve been pretty cool and the thought was to do a lot of the Stax material and so forth, but I didn’t really care about doing a “solo record.” I just wasn’t into that. I might have been able to get talked into it, but I doubt it.

Anyway, Jon Tiven (the producer) called with this idea and he said, “Hey I know you don’t want to do another solo record, but what about doing a record where you’re the artist and you’re paying tribute to your favorite group; The 5 Royales.”

I went, “Wow! That’s pretty cool. Why didn’t I think of that?” So we went forward with it. I said to him, “If you can get a record company interested, I am not up for financing another record, but if you can get somebody interested.”

He said, “Let me call you back.” It wasn’t too long before he called back saying, “We got it, we’ve got a budget and we’re on our way. Let’s go to work.” So we did and we came up with this one.

JB: How did you go about selecting songs for the album?

SC: He made CDs of all the material they had ever released and we sat down with a legal pad and a pencil. We listened to these songs and I made little notes as to whether I would want to do that one or not. We just sort of did a wish-list/checklist and he said, “When you listen to this stuff, if you hear a particular artist that you think might be good singing this song, just write it down.” So for two or three of the names, when we compared our notes later, we had come up with the same idea for the same voices. So it was pretty cool. One of them being Stevie Winwood and the other being Delbert McClinton. I definitely could hear Delbert McClinton singing, [He sings] “Right around the corner, that’s where my baby stays.”

So we made the call and he (McClinton) said, “Yeah I’ll come down and visit.” Of course he just lives around the corner. I don’t know if that had anything to do with it, but we’ve been good friends for a long time. And of course having Bettye LaVette…as the story goes Bettye dated one of The 5 Royales. It might have been Lowman Paulings’ brother that she dated years ago. So she knew about them and she had songs she wanted to do. Then we talked to B.B. King and he was right on it. He said, “Well I always liked that song ‘Baby Don’t Do it.’ Can I do that song?”

Tiven said, “Well absolutely!” So we got my good friend Shemekia Copeland to come in and sing with him on that one. Then to get Sharon Jones! I had no idea we could get Sharon Jones or Lucinda Williams. I mean that’s a stretch and Jon said, “Don’t worry about it. I’ll make the call. You don’t have to call anybody.” And sure enough they agreed to do it.

We’ve been very lucky and it was his call to get Brian May and John Popper; who’s a good friend of mine. He (Popper) was in The Blues Brothers’ second movie. He had a little part in there that was fun and he’s been a good friend for a long time. He said, “I can’t come in to sing with you, but I’m working on a new solo record. If you send me a track, let me work on it and I’ll see what I can come up with.” So he did that “My Sugar Sugar” track and he just killed it. It is amazing! It is so good.

JB: The line-up of talent is pretty is amazing.

SC: It is pretty phenomenal and for Buddy Miller to come in and jam with me on “The Slummer the Slum.” That was a song we used to do in The Mar-Keys band.

JB: When you go into a project like this one, where you’re revisiting songs that you’ve done before or songs that you’ve known your whole career, how do you decide how you’re going to play them? Obviously you’re not doing a note for note cover.

SC: Right.

JB: For instance, with “Say it” your guitar-work is much tamer than Paulings’ was on the original recording…

SC: [He begins to laugh] It’s probably because I’m not as good as he was.

JB: [I laugh]…and you do the song “Think” more as an instrumental…

SC: Yeah, well that was Tiven’s idea, on that. We used to do “Think” with The Mar-Keys and I remembered it well, with all those [he verbally imitates a guitar-lick], those little stinger licks and he said, “What do you think about taking the James Brown approach with it?”

I went, “Yeah okay, we can try it that way.” Steve Jordan (the drummer) was there and Steve just picked up on it immediately and we started playing this rhythm and golly we had it within two takes! And we kept it that way and we went, “Who are we gonna get to sing it?” and I said, “I don’t know.” So we just left it as an instrumental and Tiven played sax and I played guitar and that’s what we did.

JB: So a lot of that kind of stuff comes out organically in the studio?

SC: Yeah, but I really did sit down and start working with the different songs and all that. I wanted to make sure that I came close to the original intros; at least note-wise. Like with “Thirty Second Lover” for instance. [He sings the intro for “Thirty Second Lover”]

And so we got to working on some of the others and I said to Jon (Tiven), “I’ve been working on this stuff; really listening to Lowman. I’ve always admired his licks and I’ve kind of patterned some of my style after his, but I never actually sat down with a record and tried to learn his music note for note…”

And he said, “Oh no, don’t do that! Don’t do that! Just play ‘Cropper.’ Get the influence and the taste and the sound and then just play ‘Cropper.” So I just sort of did what I always do. I wait for the session or wait until the track is done and then I just go with what I feel.

JB: Throughout the years, you’ve become as well-known as a producer and songwriter as you are a guitarist. If somebody didn’t know you and you had to describe to them what you do, what would you say? Deep down, what do you consider yourself? A guitarist?

SC: Well if somebody asks, “What do you do?” I say that I am a musician and if they want to know more, I tell them that I’m a producer and a songwriter. I never say that I am a guitar player. If they ask me, “Do you play any instruments?”

Then I will say, “Well I try and play guitar.” “Try to play guitar.” I have never considered myself a guitar player. There are too many great ones out there.

JB: Sure.

SC: But I’ve played on so many songs and so many of them were successful that I got pegged as a guitar player. So I consider myself a producer and a songwriter. That’s what I like to do.

JB: When you wear so many hats, as a producer and a musician and a songwriter, etc. there have to be pluses and minuses to how all that works. It must make some things easier, but others harder. Can you give examples of each?

SC: The way I would describe it as being easier is, I don’t have to be constantly, day by day, be proving myself. That would be difficult in any profession. If you had to go out there every day and try to prove to somebody who you are and who you think you are. So by having so many different facets and having been fairly successful, moderately successful in most of them, from producer and engineering to writing and playing…all these sorts of things, I just look at it as, “Okay, I have to multitask here.” You’re right there are a lot of hats to wear and whichever one I have on, I try to do the best I can with it. I just give it my all and go for it.

I have always been one of those people that has said, over and over again, everybody needs a producer. There are artists that just don’t want to take direction from anybody. They just want to do it on their own. They are so much smarter than everybody and they know so much more than everybody. My thought about that, is that we’re not weighing the beans here. You know, we’re not counting marbles and weighing the rocks. If you’ve got somebody there, that is there for the purpose of helping you out and trying to help you achieve your goal, they are not going to let you let things fall to the floor. They are going to be around picking up all the pieces and making sure that you have all of it going for you all the time.

That is what a producer should do. I don’t think a producer should just dictate everything an artist should do. Let the artist do what the artist does, but be there to support them when they need help. So they don’t forget anything.

JB: I myself am a huge fan of the blues and I was hoping you could tell me a little bit about working with Albert King and if playing with him influenced the way you approached the guitar at all.

SC: Well no, I didn’t try to pick up anything from Albert; Albert playing on only two strings upside down [he laughs] and probably the weirdest tuning on the planet; between him and Albert Collins. Basically Albert (King) played on, when you turn the guitar upside down, on the top two strings. He played on the third string every now and then and the rest of them were just sort of there. [He laughs] He might’ve made some sort of noise out of them every now and then, but mostly his solos were all around the ‘E’ and the ‘B’ strings and he had one of the weirdest tunings. We asked Albert one time, “Albert how did you come up with that tuning?”

He said, “Oh man, I didn’t come up with anything. That was the way it was tuned when I picked it up out of the corner of my uncle’s house.” [He and I both laugh] It had been sitting by the front door in the sun, you know and the sun just sort of made the strings hot and they just sort of went where they went. And that’s how he picked it up. [He laughs] Now that’s interesting! It is amazing.

But Albert was a great guy and we had more fun with him…you know, taking the blues roots that he had, he was already a well-known blues player, but we took him and made him commercial. Things like “Laundromat Blues” and “Crosscut Saw,” stuff like that. I mean we just had more fun making those records. It was amazing.

JB: I need to ask you, what is probably a little bit of a selfish question. I don’t think too many people are going to be interested in this, but I am personally very interested in knowing what it was like working with John Carpenter of the score for VAMPIRES.

[At this point I need to disclose, to you the reader, that as I sat with my ear to the phone, listening intently for an answer to the question, I heard nothing but silence. The pause lasted for what seemed like an eternity and I began wonder if Mr. Steve Cropper was still on the other end of the line. Then suddenly, I heard the most magnificent belly-laugh erupt from the music legend.]

SC: Wow!

JB:  [I laugh] I’m a huge Carpenter fan and I’ve always loved his scores and I think that the score for VAMPIRES is really great.

SC: Uh…well, the experience of it, I can tell you that I had trouble sleeping for about three weeks after we did that movie track. The fact that, here you are meeting a guy that is basically a superhero in the film business and he’s like hanging out with us at night and we’d go out and have a cocktail or something and hang around and talk and tell stories. He just became one of the guys for two weeks.

But we’d get in there and start working on this morbid music [he laughs], that was “vampire-ish,” I guess you would say. Those melodies haunted me. I mean I couldn’t get to sleep. They’d just keep running in my head. I’d go, “Golly!”

It is a fairly morbid movie. There’s a lot to that. It is different than just your old science-fiction vampire movie of the past. I don’t know how it was rated or how it actually did. I just know that I’ve seen it on TV a few times and it is just a strange script. It is just amazing and that music is “whoa!”

So it was a great experience. It wasn’t the first movie track we had done, but working with him and he was creating most of the music and the melodies and all that. We were honored to be there and it was a lot of fun working with him in the studio. He was such a giving guy. He would let you embellish whatever you wanted to do, “Here’s my idea, run with it.” He wasn’t real bossy or any of that kind of thing. He was just fun to work with.

JB: I assume that at some point he gets in contact with you guys and says, “I’m doing a modern take on a vampire-western.” What do you do when you get that call?

SC: [He laughs] When he’s (James Woods) going for the crossbow and the rope and he ties them to a jeep and pulls these vampires into the street! I mean stuff like that is just so bizarre [he continues to laugh] that it’s funny!

So it was real interesting to say the least, but our connection there was through Bruce Robb the owner of Cherokee Studios; where I had worked for many many years when I lived in L.A. Bruce gave me the call and he said, “I’m working with John on this movie and when I told him that I knew you guys, he said, ‘Oh man is there any way we can get them to play on the soundtrack?” And he (Bruce Robb) said, “Probably, let me make some calls.”

I came running! When Bruce called me, I said, “Are you kidding? When do you need me out there? I will book a flight tomorrow. Let me know.” So it was that easy, but the connection came through Bruce Robb at Cherokee Studios.

JB: Before I let you go; is there anything about the new album that you want people to know that maybe we didn’t cover?

SC: Wow. Uh…[he chuckles] can you give me thirty seconds to think about that.

JB: You can take as long as you need.

SC: Well earlier you asked about the blues and what I’d like people to kind of envision when they listen to B.B. King’s track, “Baby Don’t Do it” with B.B. King and Shemekia Copeland. He overdubbed it. We flew to Las Vegas, to him, to record his part. We already had the track and when we were in the studio, we asked him, “B.B. would you be more comfortable sitting on the couch in the control room, where you are now? We can just run a cord to your amp. What do you think?”

He said, “Well if I could do that. That would be great.” So we ran a long cord from his amp in the studio and plugged him up. He sat on the couch with his guitar. We took a microphone and put on a really short stand and set it on a coffee table in front of him and then rolled the tape. The rest is what you hear. We just stood there with our chins on the floor going, “Oh my God it’s B.B. King!”

You know he’s been a friend of mine for years and I am somewhat involved in the B.B. King Clubs and so forth. So I’ve known B.B. for a long long time. I knew he was doing me a favor by doing the record, but his performance on this song! Man! All while he’s just sitting there on the couch. Like he was sitting on his couch at home, just playing guitar and singing. It was awesome. It was an awesome day.

JB: Wow that’s great and the album is great. It has a wonderful energy and all that talent and fun comes through on the tracks.

SC: It was fun and you know, being on both sides of the glass…because I had to be on one side when we did the tracks and then I had to be on the other side when we were overdubbing people like Lucinda Williams and so forth. It was just a thrill all the way around making this album and I think it speaks for itself. There is so much energy on this record. It is not contrived by any stretch of the imagination. It is just all about energy and everybody having a good time and having fun.

JB: Last question before I let you go. Do you have any tips for all those aspiring rhythm guitarists out there?

SC: [Laughing] Don’t drop your pick! [We both laugh] All these kids come up and they say, “Man, how did you learn to play guitar?

I answer, “It is real simple. Just learn one note and then learn how to play it in different positions. It is real easy.”

[He laughs again] I don’t know. If you’ve ever seen me play live, you know I play with my thumb about as much as I do with my pick. I learned many years ago, how to cradle my pick. I don’t put it between my teeth like a lot of players do. I keep it handy and I go back and forth. Of course the older I get and the fatter my hands get, the harder it is to do that, but I keep doing it. So I’ve got calluses on the left side of my thumb, bigger than the calluses on my left hand! Over the years it gets built up.

JB: Well I appreciate your time and this was a lot of fun.

SC: It was a real pleasure talking to you Blake.

JB: Likewise. It was a real honor.

If you enjoyed this article you may also enjoy The American Blues News’ review for Steve Cropper’s DEDICATED: A TRIBUTE TO THE 5 ROYALES.

Copyright © 2011 – J. Blake. All Rights Reserved.
*Live Photos: Copyright © 2011 – Nelson G. Onofre. All Rights Reserved.